Full version of the interview of President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy to Wiener Zeitung. The conversation took place on September 13, 2020.
- Ukraine and Austria have good relations, but two years ago Vladimir Putin was in Vienna, Austria, dancing at the wedding of the then Foreign Minister. I know that Ukraine, so to speak, was offended by this. Tell me, is the level of trust still low because of that wedding or has it been normalized?
- Ukraine and Austria have long enough historic relations to react to a wedding. That would be trifling for Ukraine. You just reminded me of this wedding, and I've already forgotten that there was such an episode in history. Today, this can in no way affect relations between our countries. Yes, because we have a war in the east, because Austria always officially supports our sovereignty and territorial integrity, it seems to me, then it looked very strange in Ukraine. But what I see today… I have short relations with Kurtz (Federal Chancellor of Austria Sebastian Kurz - ed.) - the relations of our countries are longer - but very pleasant. He impresses me. I talked to him several times - all times were pleasant. We had an informal meeting in Munich, a very cool meeting with Pompeo (US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo) and Zuckerberg (American businessman Mark Zuckerberg). Then we agreed that I would definitely come on an official visit, because relations between our countries need to be restored and strengthened.
- So, last year there were elections, Mr. Zelenskyy became the President, and many people said: "This man was a comedian, he played in the movie, including the role of the President of Ukraine". But it seems to me that it is still difficult to reformat from a comedian to a real president. How hard was it for you?
- I will tell you frankly that when I got into politics, we saw that mostly politicians are even bigger actors and comedians than I was. Indeed, politics in Ukraine is very similar to the series. It is no coincidence that it was so popular. But everything is much more complicated than in the movie. Because there are a lot of challenges in Ukraine - the war in the east. It's real, it's not an episode of the movie. After the loss of a warrior in the movie they say "cut", and this man continues to live, and here everything is real.
- When you were elected, voters had a lot of expectations from the President. You, in particular, spoke about the end of the war in Donbas. I know that a lot is being done for this, but you have not reached the goal yet. In this regard, there are voters who are disappointed in the President. So my question is: was what you promised related to reality? Was it your desire or populism?
- What I promise is always not just words. I really want to do it and I give all my time to this. The war in the east and the return of our territories is a priority. Therefore, when you give your time, your mind, your desire - not just romantic, but real - I am sure that there is a result.
Regarding the result. We returned about 150 people from captivity. We carried out disengagement (of forces and assets - ed.) at three sites, and despite the fact that people shouted that "this cannot be done, there will still be shots in these areas," today there are no casualties, there are no shots. We restored the Normandy format and did our best to have a meeting of the leaders of the participating countries. Today there is a regime of "silence" - the longest since the beginning of the war in Donbas. Yes, indeed, on September 6 there was a violation by the militants, and we lost one person - after six weeks of "silence". Our fighters are always ready to fight back, but do not give in to provocations by the invaders. "Silence" lasts for the seventh week. Yes, unfortunately, there is one combat loss - my condolences to the family of the military. But this (observance of the armistice - ed.) is the fact, and it is seen by all - and in Europe in particular.
There are such provocations as, for example, on September 11, when we talked to Ms. Merkel. There were provocative shots that day, but there were no combat losses, thank God. This is the longest regime of "silence" and the least number of combat losses since the beginning of the war. We understand that, in principle, there is a desire and confirmation to continue the implementation of the Minsk agreements and a desire to start a meeting of the leaders of the Normandy Four from this. The advisors met three days ago, and I know that there will be another meeting, and then, I believe, there will be a meeting of leaders. But if we adhere to - and this is important - a complete ceasefire, then we will be able to move on "Minsk" further.
- Do you really think that it will be possible to return the territories? Or maybe the situation will be similar to the Moldovan one, when Transnistria is a "gray zone" and the conflict continues?
- I know that some subjects want us to have a frozen conflict, similar to the situation with Transnistria or Abkhazia in Georgia - there are such cases in the territory of the former Soviet Union. The easiest way is to make Transnistria in Donbass, but Donbas, with all due respect, is not Transnistria. About three million Ukrainians live there. In Europe, there are countries (in terms of population - ed.) like our Donbas. We see the mood of many people there - they have low wages, they are not ready for COVID-19, no one knows the real situation with the pandemic, the real number of deaths due to coronavirus, there is a humanitarian catastrophe. And they see that life is much better in the liberated part of Donbas. Not perfect yet, unfortunately, but better.
Today we supply water to Donbas, pay pensions. I know that due to the illegal issuance of passports, many people in the occupied part of Donbas also have Russian passports, so they receive pensions from both Ukraine and Russia. We all understand that this is a bad story and it cannot last forever. But such conditions were created when the war began, and without Ukraine it will be very difficult for Donbas. And once again I appeal to the number of people who live there - this is not Transnistria. There were businesses. Now they are embezzled. There are miners there, and they need to have salaries. There are simple things like utility bills, which are being increased there. There are such people in Donbas that will not be patient for too long. It could be an explosion. Donbas as it is, without the part we control, is not a completely separate region.
Many people cross the border, visit our territory to see their parents and relatives, and then return. And they see the difference. We do our best to make them see the difference. We want to stop the war as soon as possible, but there may be an internal social explosion.
Do you think I want a social explosion? No, I do not want that at all, because a social explosion inside the occupied Donbas will lead to a large number of deaths. This will be a very serious bloody internal conflict. We see this now, when in the occupied territory certain people with a pro-Ukrainian position go out on Independence Day with the Ukrainian flag, and then disappear somewhere together with the flags. They are thrown into prisons and tortured. Many of the people we released talk about who they were with in the neighboring cells - with ordinary people from Donbas who had a pro-Ukrainian position. I do not want a social explosion, we can lose tens of thousands of innocent pro-Ukrainian citizens. That is why I believe that the war must be ended as soon as possible, and today it depends on the parties to the "Normandy Four". It depends on Ukraine, but we all understand that it mostly depends on the Russian Federation.
- A question concerning the domestic policy of Ukraine. When the Servant of the People party came to power, you said that "we are amateurs, but it is good that we do not have old politicians who are corrupt". Local elections will take place soon and, as far as I know, the Servant of the People has little chance of getting into local councils. Did the experiment fail?
- First, these are different things. National elections in Ukraine are very different from local ones. Even the percentage of people who vote in the national elections varies greatly. There are more of them than those who vote in local elections. In any case, the Servant of the People will win the local elections on average throughout Ukraine. But the structure (of the process - ed.) is completely different. There is no competition between the parties. On the ground, they vote for those people who are famous there. In most cases, people vote for mayors who have already been in power. There are mayors who have worked for several consecutive terms. And that's why all these mayors - mostly old ones - turned to us and wanted to run for office under the Servant of the People party. We do not want to take them, despite the fact that they have a high rating, because we understand who they are. The party cannot be held responsible for what they do on the ground. Because we understand how they have been sitting for 10-20 years that during their term of office they were able to build only a park and a fountain. The party, having given them its flag and name, will not be able to change them as people. Therefore, we chose the option of betting on not very famous, but professional and decent people. Even if they lose, the party will still get enough votes to then show and defend some of our projects aimed at people in the city council. And then the people who will come to the polls will choose what they want - real change or another fountain.
I say openly that today we can analyze all their (current mayors) activities in one example - these are quarantine measures due to COVID-19. The state has adopted a decision and a list of quarantine measures so that people can live, the economy and business can work. Social distance, masks, the ban on crowds, the order of travel in public transport, the work of restaurants - there are many such measures. But people do not like any ban. The mayors understand this, so many of them today, I think, do not help the state. They are engaged in populism, they give citizens an opportunity to do what they want, they allow large crowds of people - weddings and religious holidays, celebration of the days of the city when thousands of people gather. Therefore, I believe that people will choose between populism and the "fountain" and the real changes that may take place in their cities. This is very important, especially now when we are completing the decentralization reform, when there will be much more power on the ground than before.
- The coronavirus crisis hit the country hard. I know that the situation in Ukraine is very serious with the economic crisis caused by coronavirus. I have data that the economy has fallen by 25%. How do you overcome this crisis?
- COVID-19 really stopped Ukraine's economy, blocked it for six months. Jobs were lost, entrepreneurs could not withstand such a powerful blockade. There were no exports or imports. Large enterprises that could afford to keep people employed despite the fact that they were isolated at home and pay them wages first paid the full amount, then two-thirds, then a third… Indeed, there was an economic collapse, but not in Ukraine - all over the world.
Yes, we have a crisis, but compared to Europe, the situation in Ukraine is quite good at the moment. In the second half of the year we expect a 10-11% decline in the economy, and we predicted 14%. Some of our economists said 25%, some said 8-9%. It is not easy for us, but the situation in Ukraine as a whole is not bad compared to other European countries.
We do not print dollars, we do not have such an opportunity, but at the same time we are doing a lot now in real credit, mortgage programs, in the support of production. We are developing several programs of preferential lending to farmers and agriculture. I believe that we should create assistance programs. We have such an opportunity. For example, our program "5-7-9%". It is difficult to compare with Europe - loan rates are very small there, but here people took on loans at 20% rate. Now there is a program under which you can take a loan at 5, 7 or 9%. Yes, this is not the dream we are going for yet, but people have already received 6 billion hryvnias in loans. We support the economy as much as we can.
- Now to Belarus, where the struggle for freedom is taking place. We all know the situation there. Is it possible to compare the current situation in Belarus with the Orange Revolution or the Maidan that took place in Ukraine? Will Belarus somehow be able to start playing a new geopolitical role - it is also located between Western and Eastern Europe?
- I don't know whether it is possible to compare it with Maidan. In any case, I support the people of Belarus who really want change. They want to be free, democratic, to choose the leader they want. They want everything to be transparent. We do not see aggression, weapons, arson, attacks from them. But we all saw those who treated these people impudently, we saw law enforcement officers representing the authorities.
If the state does not find a dialogue with its people who elect the leaders of the state, it will get, I can't say Maidan, because each country has its own history, but something similar to Maidan. The only thing we don't see yet is a symbol. In each similar case, the people had a leader (he or she does not matter), there was one around whom people gathered. I don't see this leader yet. But this is the exclusive right of the Belarusian people, and any country has no right to interfere in politics, in the elections of another country.
- In the context of the conflict in eastern Ukraine, Belarus has played the role of mediator between Russia and Ukraine. Now, due to the situation in Belarus, relations between the countries have changed. Can Belarus continue to play this mediating role?
- We will wait until the stabilization of the situation in Belarus. It's too early to tell. Due to COVID-19, all TCG meetings take place online. We will see. The citizens of Ukraine and Belarus have always been friendly, real brothers and sisters - and this is the most important thing. And our people will outlive all officials.